Emiliano Sciarra

Forum di Emiliano Sciarra
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  

Share | 
 

 Discard vs. Use

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
raggot
Comparsa


Pisces Messaggi : 6
Data d'iscrizione : 2011-03-08
Località : Delft, the Netherlands

PostSubject: Discard vs. Use   Tue 08 Mar 2011, 09:48

Hello, I am a little puzzled by what I think is incoherent in the FAQs.

The effect of a Duel requires players to discard BANG! cards.

In FAQ BANG/D6 I read:
D6. Can I play BANG! in the same turn I played a Duel in which I used a BANG! card?
R. Yes, a BANG! in a Duel is not used, but discarded

This is also my opinion, but then I read FAQ HighNoon/D2:
D2. When Sermon is in play, can a player use BANG! cards in Duel during his turn?
R. No. The player during his turn cannot use BANG! cards. [...]

Although, my biggest concern regards the character Molly Stark, about whom I couldn't find anything in the FAQs. Depending on the meaning of 'use' in the text, this character could be extremely strong.
I read somewhere on a .pdf booklet that this means "voluntarily discard out of her turn", which differs from the text on the card.
How does she behave by official rules?

Grazie!

- Nicola
Back to top Go down
View user profile
lichking Martin Blazko
Marshall
avatar

Capricorn Messaggi : 222
Data d'iscrizione : 2010-11-08
Località : Trnava, Slovakia

PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   Tue 08 Mar 2011, 21:43

Hi Nicola!

Molly Stark draws 1 card eachtime she uses voluntarily use card out her turn:

  • Beer as safe before DEATH(lost of last life point)
  • after DUELs for each discarded BANGs cards
  • each MISSED!, DODGE, ... .
  • INDIANS deflected by BANG card
Back to top Go down
View user profile
raggot
Comparsa


Pisces Messaggi : 6
Data d'iscrizione : 2011-03-08
Località : Delft, the Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   Wed 09 Mar 2011, 12:07

Thanks for the reply. This is what I found somewhere ont he internet, but still it is unclear when to consider a card discarded and when used. Anyway the possible contraddiction I listed in the first post still remains unanswered.

Let me ask this more directly: how do you define the term use in Bang?

If use = play = activate a card's effect,
1) Molly Stark is either badly interpreted or printed with misleading text.
2) Question HighNoon/D2 is answered in a wrong way. During Sermon, discarding BANG! cards in a Duel does not break any rule, since it is a consequence of Duel, and the BANG!s are discarded, not played. Answer to question Bang/D6 supports this point.

If use = voluntarily discard , as in the interpretation for Molly Stark,
1) In a Duel, only Billy the Kid could use more than one BANG!, because a BANG! is voluntarily discarded (therefore used). The response to question HighNoon/D2 appears to strengthen this conclusion.
2) After a Duel, no BANG!s should be allowed to be played if one was already discarded (voluntarily discard = use) unless in possession of a Volcanic, or being Billy the Kid. Again, HighNoon/D2 supports.
3) A BANG! with diamonds suit played in a duel with Apache Kid would have no effect, resolving in an unclear situation.

Personally, I think the response to HighNoon/D2 in the FAQs is wrong. You should be able to discard BANG!s in a Duel, or Sermon should say "BANG!s cannot be voluntarily discarded or played".

Moreover I also believe Molly Stark, interpreted in this way, is unbalancedly strong. If a player is smart enough, he would only choose to play blue cards and healing cards in his turn, keeping all the rest to stay in a fortress of BANG!s, Missed and Dodge. The only way for him to lose cards are Cat Balous and Panics, which in the expansion are unbalancedly reduced in ratio to the global number of cards.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
raggot
Comparsa


Pisces Messaggi : 6
Data d'iscrizione : 2011-03-08
Località : Delft, the Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   Fri 25 Mar 2011, 00:59

I'd still love an answer, if anybody has one! Smile
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Paolo
Vice Sceriffo
avatar

Messaggi : 241
Data d'iscrizione : 2010-10-19
Località : Macerata

PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   Fri 25 Mar 2011, 07:58

Hi Nicola, Martin already answered you about the rules.

What you are pointing out about text incongruities it's true, but think that original BANG! came out a long time ago (without green cards for example), and many expansions of different types have come out later making obsolete some original texts.

In general "play" means to play a card from the hand to the table during phase 2 of player turn. The exception is BANG! used in a Duel which is discarded.
Usually cards are "discarded" during phase 3 of a player turn, but are also discarded cards by Cat Balou, Can Can, etc.
The term "use" is used to differentiate behaviour of green cards which are 'played' from hand to table in front of the player, and 'used' when they give off their effects in a following turn.

The FAQ about Sermon is bad written as it makes an uncorrect use of terms. It probably looked the easiest way to make understandable the card (BANG! cannot be played or discarded at all) with ingenuous use of the same words as the question: this generates the confusion.

Molly Starks works as described, and believe me if I told you she's not unbalancedly strong altough she can play her dirty job Wink

P.S.: a little suggestion, when you find incongruities the 99% of the times you can resolve using the correct order: 1) rules b. faqs (faqs are written only to answer a single question, not to give a general rule), 2) BANG! & DC rules b. HN & AFOC rules (HN and AFOC are only minor expansions, think only that cards of AFOC are written by players and just revised by Emiliano)

_________________
Approccio professionale a Bang? Prova le BANG! Utility
Professional approach to Bang? Try the BANG! Utility


Bang! Stats Database *Agg. The Duel 2015*
MyBang
Bang! Stats Database *Upd. The Duel 2015* and MyBang
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://tinyurl.com/BANGutility
Paolo
Vice Sceriffo
avatar

Messaggi : 241
Data d'iscrizione : 2010-10-19
Località : Macerata

PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   Fri 25 Mar 2011, 08:09

lichking Martin Blazko wrote:

Molly Stark draws 1 card eachtime she uses voluntarily use card out her turn:
  • after DUELs for each discarded BANGs cards
Not to add confusion to an already hard matter, but this is not true:

if Molly Starks discards BANG! cards in a Duel played by the opponent, she draws a new card as soon as she has discarded the BANG! card (with Duel still running too), differently from Suzy Lafayette who has to wait the end of the Duel to 'check' the number of cards in the hand. Molly has nothing to check Wink

_________________
Approccio professionale a Bang? Prova le BANG! Utility
Professional approach to Bang? Try the BANG! Utility


Bang! Stats Database *Agg. The Duel 2015*
MyBang
Bang! Stats Database *Upd. The Duel 2015* and MyBang
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://tinyurl.com/BANGutility
raggot
Comparsa


Pisces Messaggi : 6
Data d'iscrizione : 2011-03-08
Località : Delft, the Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   Sun 27 Mar 2011, 11:00

Grazie.

I have a better understanding of the difference between play and use now, but it still remains only explained by your post. I don't mean to sound arrogant, you have been very kind to explain these things and I believe you know your stuff, but where did you learn them? Unfortunately, rules are not clear.

I hoped I would have received more referenced feedback from this forum. I think it's necessary to make an official .pdf with an extensive explanation for every card and review the faqs... I mean, you speak in a way you are an expert about the game, and I'm sure it's true, but there's too much to interprete without clear references/rules, and the cards' text is, for about 20%, untrustable or left withouth a good explanation.

I've read the linked tournament rules on your signature but it merely treats the structure of the tournament and eventual punishments, but there is no rule about the game.

So far, faqs and rules I find online or on forums for the expansions is a compendium of small examples of what to do and not to do that is sometimes even incoherent.. It would be awesome to have 'advanced rules' as

"use: to voluntarily activate a card's effect", or

"the triggered effects of cards resolve in the following order: first the character of the player in turn, then the cards in play, then the character of the next player etc. (e.g. Suzy Lafayette played a bang against el gringo as her last card and he loses a life. Therefore she draws first because her effect is triggered first, then since none of her cards in play trigger any action, El gringo's effect takes place and he takes a card. The ability of Suzy is triggered again)"

I'm inventing now, but it's just to tell you what I'd expect from a game that's growing so much and could seriously take over a good part of the ludic market if only it was structured more clearly. I am afraid FAQs calling particular situations do not fit this game anymore. More generic rules are required. This has happened to mostly every game growing with expansions, as Magic. The strength of these games is their strong and clear (even if maybe complicated) rules fundament.

What you told me about Molly Stark only added confusion, especially because you said bangs are discarded, and reading the text of Molly as I think you know you only find the word 'use'.. I'm not inquiring about this character anymore, since I think you already made clear that the text is wrong, but that's everything we have!..

Buona giornata!
- Nicola
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Paolo
Vice Sceriffo
avatar

Messaggi : 241
Data d'iscrizione : 2010-10-19
Località : Macerata

PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   Sun 27 Mar 2011, 11:17

raggot wrote:

What you told me about Molly Stark only added confusion, especially because you said bangs are discarded, and reading the text of Molly as I think you know you only find the word 'use'.. I'm not inquiring about this character anymore, since I think you already made clear that the text is wrong, but that's everything we have!..

To be precise I didn't say the text about Molly Stark is wrong, but that was written when many features of BANG! as we know it today did not exist yet. This is the cause of confusion. Besides I said "if Molly Starks discards BANG! cards in a Duel played by the opponent" because BANG! cards are discarded during a Duel, that's all.

At end, (I agree with you) I would appreciate a new version of the game with all the descriptions modified and revised, it may be an idea for DV.

Ciao Wink

_________________
Approccio professionale a Bang? Prova le BANG! Utility
Professional approach to Bang? Try the BANG! Utility


Bang! Stats Database *Agg. The Duel 2015*
MyBang
Bang! Stats Database *Upd. The Duel 2015* and MyBang
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://tinyurl.com/BANGutility
lichking Martin Blazko
Marshall
avatar

Capricorn Messaggi : 222
Data d'iscrizione : 2010-11-08
Località : Trnava, Slovakia

PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   Sun 27 Mar 2011, 12:35

I agree with you. Maybe it is time to make revision of all text and make better description or text formulation.

I had plan to like my own rule book with better explamantion, but I am too busy at moment.

There is need to look at all language location of game too. Sometimes there was bad translation to local language.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
raggot
Comparsa


Pisces Messaggi : 6
Data d'iscrizione : 2011-03-08
Località : Delft, the Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   Sun 27 Mar 2011, 16:03

What about opening a google doc document and cooperate to build a good rule book?

The document can be made public, and anybody can contribute putting ideas and questions... In this way the load of work wouldn't fall on the shoulders of one person only.

I'd be happy to contribute... Smile
Back to top Go down
View user profile
lichking Martin Blazko
Marshall
avatar

Capricorn Messaggi : 222
Data d'iscrizione : 2010-11-08
Località : Trnava, Slovakia

PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   Sun 27 Mar 2011, 17:54

I like this idea. So I will create one with link:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PjMxzzUn7tK5hEl2gRg0O84A_5WYopjMClUbOzI188I/edit?hl=sk&authkey=CLD6yqIC
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Emiliano
Sceriffo
avatar

Sagittarius Messaggi : 175
Data d'iscrizione : 2010-08-07
Località : Civitavecchia, Italy

PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   Wed 13 Apr 2011, 18:14

Raggot,
as Paolo pointed it out, the game evolved a lot from almost ten years ago, and actually there are some little inconsistencies.
There are general rules, but there are also exceptions which should allow a game of Bang! to flow better: just because there is a general rule it does not mean that exceptions cannot exist -- even if I agree with you that they must be kept at the minimum possible.
Bang!, after all, is quite a simple game compared to juggernauts like Magic or other collectible card games, so the main goal is to keep things simple without the need of a complex rulebook: this is also why dV decided to keep the FAQs as few as possible, with the last edition containing fewer FAQ as the previous one.
However, it is certainly true that with the growth of the game, and the need of a clear rules references for the official tournaments, probably something needs to be reworked somehow. Just one example: I plan to change the rule of the Bang! from "you may play one Bang! per turn" to "you may play one SHOT per turn" -- where cards which count as a SHOT will be marked by a special symbol (like an explosion) on the borders of the card, so there is no need anymore of "extra Bang!" or "counts/does not count as a Bang!", which is a primary source of confusion among players (by the way, it was how the original rule worked back in 2000).
I will gladly read any suggestion on these points, and I will talk with dV on the topic as soon as I have completed the plans for a complete revision of the rules.
Of course, all of you will be invited to read and comment this before the publisher! Wink
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.emilianosciarra.it
raggot
Comparsa


Pisces Messaggi : 6
Data d'iscrizione : 2011-03-08
Località : Delft, the Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   Sat 23 Apr 2011, 10:36

You are right, simple rules are better suited for a simple game. Just it would be great if what we read on the cards' text and on the rulebook is actually enough to solve unclear situations. Needing google to look for exceptions takes out value from the game...

As you have probably seen already, we have created a google doc file with some suggestions and a list of problems to be solved. You can take a look to it for suggestions. Anyway, if you want to share with us the needs of the process of rewriting texts and rules, consider that we would be glad to help.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PjMxzzUn7tK5hEl2gRg0O84A_5WYopjMClUbOzI188I/edit?hl=sk&authkey=CLD6yqIC

Have a nice day!
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Discard vs. Use   

Back to top Go down
 
Discard vs. Use
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Emiliano Sciarra :: Giochi-
Jump to: